hankyoreh

Yun Geon-yeong, former director of the Blue House Governance Situation Room, during his interview with the Hankyoreh in Seoul on Jan. 21. (Kim Jung-hyo, staff photographer)

Hani: You were deeply involved in inter-Korean relations as the director of the Blue House Governance Situation Room, which appeared to be unconventional. Was there any special reason for your heavy involvement?

Yun: The Governance Situation Room is a policy crisis management center that submits both prior and ex post facto reports on policy issues, and inter-Korean relations is one area that is subject to monitoring. However, being the director of the Governance Situation Room is not the reason I played a role in inter-Korean relations. Since North Korea sent Kim Yo-jong [Kim Jong-un’s sister] as a person who ‘could talk with Kim Jong-un,’ we also had to send a person who “could speak with President Moon.”

Hani: How many times have you seen North Korean leader Kim Jong-un?

Yun: I have met him at six events. I spent three whole days with him during the Pyongyang summit, so it is difficult to count the number of occasions. [laughs]

Hani: Would it be right to say that you have seen him the most out of all South Korean government officials?

Yun: That’s probably correct.

Hani: Since you have been involved in almost all major inter-Korean events during the Moon administration, you must have become close with some of the North Korean officials.

Yun: I am always happy to see Kim Yo-jong, first vice director of the Central Committee of the Korean Workers’ Party. [laughs] I have also met the newly appointed Foreign Minister Ri Son-gwon several times. We even went drinking together.

Hani: President Moon recently put forward a proposal to allow individual tours to North Korea. What is the context behind this suggestion?

Yun: Denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula is the vehicle that drives both inter-Korean relations and US-North Korea relations. North Korea and the US are the main parties to denuclearization. They are the front wheels that determine the direction we travel in. Inter-Korean relations are the rear wheels. In 2018 it was the power of the rear wheels that propelled the vehicle, and we hoped that the front wheels would take the lead in 2019 but that didn’t happen. It is now 2020, and it is time for the rear wheels to start driving again. The individual tours idea was put forward to achieve this. Several agreements between the two governments would be required to allow South Korean citizens to travel individually to the North, and this process would take inter-Korean relations to the next level. It has great symbolic significance for relations between the two Koreas.

Hani: Has there been any coordination with North Korea behind the scenes that led to this proposal?

Yun: What happens behind closed doors has to stay there. [laughs] If it were made public then it would no longer be behind the scenes.

Hani: I wonder whether this is a viable proposal.

Yun: Overall it’s not easy, but I believe that travel to restricted areas is possible within a limited scope. South Korean athletes went to Masikryong Ski Resort to train right before the Pyeongchang Winter Olympics. That was an example of individual travel. I think we can adopt a gradual approach to attractions that North Korea is currently trying to promote, such as the Yangdok Hot Springs Tourist Area and Masikryong Ski Resort near Mt. Kumgang.

Hani: From North Korea’s perspective, this doesn’t seem very lucrative financially and could prove to be nothing but a hassle.

Yun: “Having South Korean nationals visit the North would also serve as a great symbol for North Korea around the world. The value of this would be difficult to calculate in monetary terms. I’m not sure about the short-term, but in the long run there would be plenty of visitors which would make it financially attractive.

Yun: If we move beyond Yangdok and Masikryong, tourism to the Wonsan Kalma area and Samjiyon could also be possible. Moving in this direction could also lead to a solution to Mount Kumgang tours. Tourism run by Hyundai Asan is not possible because of the sanctions, but people could be able to visit Mt. Kumgang too if they go through the individual tour procedures.

Hani: It doesn’t appear that there has been any meaningful response from North Korea so far.

Yun: It doesn’t matter whether North Korea graciously accepts or not. We are in an urgent situation and we have to do something. If we don’t then we might end up back in 2017. We have to throw something out there. 2020 is the year for action. There’s no need to be afraid.

Hani: Kim Jong-un suggested resuming tours to Mt. Kumgang in his 2019 New Year’s Address, but a year has passed since then. In fact, last October he ordered the removal of all South Korean facilities from Mt. Kumgang. Don’t we need to hurry up?

Yun: There are two sides to that order. One is the need to protect the property rights of South Korean citizens and companies, including Hyundai Asan. But if you actually go and take a look at Mt. Kumgang, you’ll see that the facilities are very old. The hotel is full of rust, and the golf course is overgrown with weeds that are taller than people. In some sense, there is no choice but to get rid of these facilities. The criticism that we moved too slowly in 2019 is well-founded, and I am also disappointed by this. But at the time all we could do was wait and hope that the US and North Korea would be able to work things out.

Hani: Individual tourism is the job of the car's rear wheels. But the end of the day, the rear wheels will remain just that. As Yun himself acknowledges, solving the North Korea nuclear issue will ultimately fall to the front wheels. If the front wheels are not spinning in place, it doesn't matter how well the back wheels are working.

Yun: It's not that individual tourism in itself is what is important, [the heart of the matter] is whether US-North Korea relations will work out or not. I think that there will be meaningful progress made between the US and North Korea in the first half of this year.

Hani: Can you back that up?

Yun: It's clear even by simply looking objectively at the situation. President Trump has an upcoming State of the Union Address in early February, meaning that the impeachment situation will be coming to an end. At the plenary meeting of the Workers’ Party of Korea, North Korea said that they would ''display their strength," and the only fitting occasion for that would be Army Day, on Feb. 8. Thus, the US and North Korea both face a crossroads in February. Taking this into account, the US and North Korea need to make something happen by early February, or March at the very latest. Then they need to ride this current until the Tokyo Olympics in July. They need to make Tokyo the second Pyeongchang.

Hani: The political situation was extremely grave when Moon took office in May of 2017 -- to the point that there were rumors of a potential war. In spite of this situation, things went smoothly between North and South Korea in 2018. Was there ever a real masterstroke moment?

Yun: Over the long term, it would be the Berlin Speech in June, 2017 because it laid out the new administration's vision of peace on the Korean peninsula. Over the short term, it would be the decision to postpone the combined US - South Korea military exercises until after the Pyeongchang Winter Olympics, as well as the proposal to participate in the Olympics together.

Hani: Has the previous postponement of the joint military exercises opened up the opportunity to postpone the one scheduled for March, too?

Yun: Joint military exercises concerning the US-South Korea alliance and are a matter of sovereignty. When I visited North Korea in March, 2018, Kim Jong-un told me that he “understands the joint military exercises.” Normal nations are understanding of each other's military exercises. He only asked to refrain from them when negotiations are still ongoing. He is right. If talks are still in progress, it is necessary to be flexible about the joint US-South Korea military exercises. The same goes for the one planned in March.

Hani: How do you view Ambassador Harris' comments?

Yun: Individual tourism has nothing to do with the UN sanctions on North Korea. A fair amount of people from all over the world travel to North Korea. Harris knows that already, so speaking as though South Korea needs permission from the US-South Korean working group, while going on about sanctions, strikes me as disingenuous.

Hani: What kind of person is Ri Son-gwon?

Yun: He comes from a military background, and is part of Kim Yong-chol's circle. As you can see from his "naengmyeon comment" [an incident in September 2018 in which Ri sparked controversy when he asked South Korean business leaders visiting Pyongyang: "You have an appetite for naengmyeon at a time like this?”], he has a rough personality. He is incredibly loyal to the regime. I think handing the reins over to Ri Son-gwon reflects Chairman Kim's will to change the playing field altogether. Why would he dismiss Ri Yong-ho if he were doing well? We need to further analyze the direction in which this change is headed.

Hani: Could the appointment of a South Korea specialist like Ri Son-gwon be the result of a decision that North Korea can no longer neglect its relationship with the South?

Yun: To take the optimistic view, he is someone who knows the entire story since the Pyeongchang Winter Olympics. He knows a lot about inter-Korean relations. As part of the Kim Yong-chol circle, he is also close to Kim Jong-un. These are all positive aspects.

Hani: Do Moon and Kim [Jong-un] still trust each other?

Yun: They have already had three summit meetings in the span of a year. They spent two nights and three days together in Pyongyang. The trust between the two leaders is as strong as ever. For the 2018 summit in Pyongyang, Chairman Kim had planned to make the trip into North Korea alongside President Moon, but he had to drive up a day early because there were problems with the preparation for the summit. At around midnight that evening, Chairman Kim came by the Baekhwawon state guest house without prior notice. After requesting to see me, he explained every little detail for concerning Pyongyang summit, which was about to happen over the next three days. He felt that it was a courtesy to President Moon.

Hani: Traveling from Seoul to Pyongyang by car is fairly rare. How were the roads?

Yun: North Korea provided us with a car at Panmunjom, which we took to Pyongyang. I had told myself I would absorb all the local realities of North Korea and was straining my eyes to do so, but I hadn't slept the night before so I dozed off after just five minutes. The roads didn't look too good. The car rattled around constantly. Even as I dozed off, my head kept banging against the ceiling. [laughs]

Hani: Even if the two leaders haven’t actually spoken on the phone, is the hotline itself still in place?

Yun: I’ll refer you to my previous answer.

Yun: When Stephen Biegun, the US State Department’s special representative for North Korea, visited South Korea last year, I tried to persuade him that North Korea-US relations are like our right foot and inter-Korean relations are like our left foot and that we won’t get very far by hopping on one foot. The leaders of South Korea, North Korea, and the US met at Panmunjom on June 30, 2019, and after that there was a chance that things would go well and a chance that they wouldn’t. We could only hope for the best. We couldn’t make a rash move. But now the car has fallen into the ditch. To get the car out of the ditch, the rear wheels need to turn.

By Kim Won-chul and Noh Ji-won, staff reporters

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