hankyoreh

Hankyoreh reporters’ interview with whistleblower Thomas Drake

When it comes to the whistleblowing on the NSA, Edward Snowden is not the first one. According to NGO ‘GAP(Governmental Accountability Project)’, Thomas Drake has dedicated his life to safeguarding his country. He served in the Air Force specializing in intelligence, and then worked as a CIA analyst and contractor for the National Security Agency (NSA)for 12 years before joining the NSA full time in 2001. Drake worked at the agency as a software contractor until 2008. When he saw abuse in the billions of dollars spent on the allegedly illegal surveillance program, he took his concerns to his superiors at NSA, to Congress and to the Department of Defense Inspectors General, but nothing changed. Finally, Drake made legal disclosures of unclassified information to a Baltimore Sun reporter. He was prosecuted by Department of Justice under the Espionage Act. He faced the possibility of decades in prison. NGOs and media made this issue public. The DOJ finally dropped all of the Espionage Act charges. Drake pled guilty to a misdemeanor and was sentenced to one year of probation and community service, but lost his pension. The Hankyoreh interviewed with Drake on Oct. 12 for one and half hours through video chat. He declined to disclose specific declassified information but provided worthwhile insight.

Hankyoreh (Hani): Pleased to meet you, Mr. Drake. I think we’re the first Korean media to have contacted you. I’ve been digging into how South Korea factors into NSA activities. One shocking disclosed by Edward Snowden is that New Zealand’s GCSB (Government Communications Security Bureau) hacked the emails of a South Korean diplomat who ran in the WTO secretary election in 2013. It was NSA CNE (Computer Network Exploitation) program ‘Xkeyscore’ that New Zealand used for hacking. Do you think that the NSA has sufficient power to access such e-mail contents freely through ‘Xkeyscore’? Do you think the agency has ability to vacuum up all the contents of e-mails?

Thomas Drake: I can’t answer the question specifically. When it comes to foreign intelligence, anything is game. So, if it’s not a US citizen, it doesn’t matter whether it is an ally or not, particularly what is called ‘a third party’. It is a spy business. Spy vs Spy and spy on anybody. You can get away this. So, I don‘t find unusual at all if it will take place. Do they have the ability to vacuum up what they have accessed whether through directly or through others? Yes. I can’t speak specifically to whether or not they did with the South Korean candidates, I don’t have that kind of knowledge. I’ll just say if they have decided to target somebody, it doesn’t matter that he is a diplomat or someone in another country, even if they are an ally.

Hani : A Snowden document describes the NSA’s spying on the UN office of South Korea in New York. They spied by capturing the targets’ computer monitors which was called VAGRANT. Do you also agree that the NSA has skills to conduct such operation in reality?

Drake: They certainly do and they can get away with it. Yes, they have capability. You know, some of them are quite fascinating in terms how they do it. But the fact is that all the parts are engaged. The technology just made it more interesting and necessary in that way.

Hani: Glenn Greenwald disclosed that the NSA implanted backdoor Cisco routers which were to be exported and the NSA exploited all the Internet packages passing through the router. This is also very shocking to Korean civilians. Do you also think that NSA has sufficient power of that kind?

Drake: The intelligence agencies such as NSA, if it has a special relationship with companies like Cisco, there is an opportunity to plant a backdoor and if they have, they will do so. Particularly it might be handy to that access to other information especially through a router. Not unusual at all. I mean, it doesn’t compromise the security of the network that it’s on. It is a part because the backdoor and router, I mean, other people can find it as well. The backdoor is not immune from exploitation by others when they are discovered. And it is a different way of using backdoors. It’s not unusual at all. They would take advantage of the opportunity to, in essence, to build in a mechanism that provides backdoor surveillance. You never know. It is convenient. Again I have to say a utilitarian theory here of intelligence.

Hani: I can understand the rules of the game in intelligence community. But one concern is that the NSA can collect data on civilians, who aren’t targets. Isn’t that possible? That is one big concern among Korean civilians.

Drake: It might be a concern but again, you all Korean civilians are foreigners, it doesn’t matter what the relationship is diplomatically, it doesn’t matter what the alliance is in terms of the aftermath of the Korean War from the 1950s during the conflict. It is the reality of today and modern technology. And the way in which modern technology works, packets and communication is, very conveniently easy. It might sweep up everything. So traditionally, you only went after targets, real threats or even foreigners. Nowadays the haystack principle. You see first, you search later. it doesn’t matter if you violate whatever rights the citizen has. It’s very challenging, difficult and challenging, frankly, to protect a citizen in any country from its own intelligence agency or a foreign intelligence agency. Unfortunately, the history is not kind here, and technology is enabling this. So, the question becomes how to protect yourself. It is a significant issue that you have to take or employ mathematicians to protect yourself from such an intrusion particularly in mass surveillance regime. Modern technologies made it a far easier. The information is the power. We have access to information. We have access to the database. We have the access to the communication channel. We have the access to the routers. We have the access to the fiber-optic network. It doesn’t matter who is innocent or isn’t. Obviously, the vast majority of citizens or human beings on the Earth are completely innocent. The vast majority of human beings in South Korea are not a threat at all to anybody. People are just objects.

Hani: Why don’t we move on to the theme of the relationship between NSA and Korea. What it is like the cooperation between two agencies? Could you draw the picture of the relationship?

Drake: I can’t give you specifics because some are classified. I will just tell you the strategic partnership has existed for many years. Korea is a special partner because of the conflict (Korean War) and it is defined as ‘the third party’ by the NSA. I will call it as a special relationship in its own way. Historically there is a common threat in that way. So the relationship has existed for a long, long time. Lots of common interests.

Hani: What are those?

Drake: One is North Korea. Another is China. There’s other shared regional responsibilities and dynamics that would be coming to both countries. And the infiltration, I mean, I am well aware of the history with the cat-and-mouse game of infiltration. So that, there would be lots of. There would be probably concerns to the stability of that region and the stability of the country. In some cases, you have more rightwing governments and some cases more leftwing one. The intelligence said “they always wants to make sure that their interests are paramount”.

Hani: In the interview with Der Spiegel, they asked why the German government wanted to cooperate with the US intelligence agency even though their prime minister had been snooped on. I’d like to ask the same question relating to Korea. What do you think about the situation in Korea?

Drake: Well, it is a part of the history. United States was the senior ally. The United States, in terms of the relationship, is the big brother. And, so, it has the tremendous leverage in terms of the agreement and arrangement in the public and private and everything in between. So, in spite of taking advantage of it, and even spying on its allies including the highest level, like Germany’s Angela Merkel. Then (NSA says) “hey, it’s our advantage to do so!” And even if it comes to light in public, Germany did not want to jeopardize its fundamental relationship with the United States in spite of all the revelations. The equivalent is in South Korea. Even when you find out Germany is spied on by the NSA intelligence community and through other partners, it’s still not enough to jeopardize the fundamental relationship between the governments. Remember the utilitarian theory of international spying. You don‘t trust anybody.

Hani: According to Snowden’s revelations there is a saying that the US even funded the Korean government for the intelligence activity. Why does the US give money to Korea even though they have such huge power?

Drake: There‘s obvious reason for the cooperation including dealing with North Korea, in particular. That is still ongoing for decades. It’s still the primary reason. It also ensures the cooperative activity. And it‘s given much larger entity. But the other thing, the intelligence agencies of Korea are not going to decline it. Why would they? The loyalty here is very important from a transnational objective. More often, the respect of the intelligence agencies in different countries when in the agreement with the alliance. Those royalties are much greater than to their own countries. It’s not often well understood issue in it. That is the transnational nature of the intelligence.

Hani: Do you have experience working in Korea?

Drake: No. I knew many, many people who did work there. I personally did not.

Hani: Now we have unprecedented technology before that could make it possible that the state would collect all the mass surveillance data we‘ve never seen before. In a interview, you mentioned 1970’s Nixon era and East Germany‘s Stasi to describe the situation we see now. How do you think the surveillance power of modern states compares to that of other authoritarian regimes before?

Drake: In terms of the surveillance, the technology has made the historical regimes look like pikers. The technology enables the size of the data streams, volume, variety and the scope and scale. They’ve adapted to it. So it really is the story of 1984 where it is possible, even beyond 1984. That threatens the sovereignty and enables to abuse the human beings. Unfortunately it sweeps up extraordinary amount of information. That‘s one of the paradoxes in the information age. (East) Germany or 1970’s Nixon used the information as the power of the NSA against completely innocent Americans because it considered as the political threat. This is where the power surveillance really begins. Now we are using the technology to monitor people and besides someone‘s threat or possibly a threat, like journalists, like reporters or like who do the investigations, media, media people, political enemies or enemy. Then, I have the power to keep tracking them. I have the power to control and monitor them. I have the power to survey them.

Hani: What do you think the real reason intelligence agencies collect so much data?

Drake: Because they can. There is an obsessive-compulsive complex. There’s an extraordinarily overwhelming drive just to collect it all because you can. You want everything worth knowing. Now you are addicted to the data. That’s really it. The national security regimes, especially electronic side, they get addicted. It’s like a drug. They want the data on the daily, hourly or even minute by minute.

Hani: Let me just ask one question about the technology gap. A security expert in Korea said that NSA’s technology is way beyond the technology in the private sector. He said of a 10-year gap. Do you agree with the opinion?

Drake: Well, I am going to answer it in a different way. That might have been true for a while ago. But the NSA is 10 years behind, not 10 years ahead, during the explosion of the Internet, public Internet in 1990. Remember, companies like Google. It has large amount of data and has special relationship with the NSA. More information that the NSA wouldn’t be able to deal with yet or access it. On the other hand, it is very good becoming state-sponsored hackers. The cooperate agreement with the company like Verizon, based on the secret court order, hand over all the information each year to the NSA everyday. That’s what happened. the United States has long-standing relationships with the Silicon Valley of South San Francisco long before 1980’s. Not unusual at all. And in fact, after or even before the 911, vast amount of Silicon Valley technology, computers, routers, software, hardware, storage devices were sold to the NSA. NSA doesn‘t build it own computer.The NSA had special skills in the geographic and photography. It is the very specialized skill and employs lots of mathematicians. That’s probably one area in which the NSA has its own progress.

Hani: Let me make one thing clear. Do you believe big IT companies like Google or Facebook cooperate with the NSA even though they claim not to?

Drake: Yes. A lot of agreements are very secret. In some cases, there are only a couple of people who even know about the agreements. Obviously, they don’t want them out there. But there’s been pushback since a lot of revelations that started during my period of whistleblowing and then it was accelerated by Snowden. There’s been pushback. You’ve seen a lot of IT and computer firms pushing back against just automatically accepting any request or agreement with the US government because it causes problems with the business.

Hani: Let’s move on to the last theme. What was your first reaction to Snowden’s whistleblowing? How did you feel? You must know the consequences he would face.

Drake: I’d always hoped someone like Snowden would come along. I actually did. So, all the whistleblowing by me and others had not stopped in the surveillance regime. It continued to grow in size. But I was not surprised. I knew someone like Snowden who would come forward that make the moral choice, do the right thing in extraordinary risk. But he realized he would have to leave the country. He couldn’t remain in the United States. But it is extraordinary and fortunately, he still has his voice. He lives in a country that’s not considered as a pillar of democracy. On the other hand, I will say he is no doubt safer living there than anywhere else. But none of this whistleblowing surprises me and none of the revelations to date have surprised me. I am quite familiar with all the foundational programs in which it would have been reported to Snowden. And there is still more out there. There are still hundreds of surveillance programs that have not been revealed from Snowden’s documents.

Hani: You built a long career in the intelligence community. What made you become a whistleblower?

Drake: I was exposed to governmental wrongdoing, governmental mismanagement, violations of law and forms of abuse. I saw billions and billions of dollars spent on the programs that were not going anywhere. I saw what happened with 9/11. It is a big thing to open the Pandora’s Box. We would say I opened it and looked into it. I was staring in the beast. That was my own government violating the constitution and the rights of citizens on an extraordinarily bad scale. It didn’t matter if you were a US citizen and the NSA treated you like a foreigner. Everybody becomes a target in that mindset. So I became a whistleblower because I couldn’t remain silent. And of course, I paid an extraordinarily high price for it. But at least I’m living like a human being. I am not in prison, not facing many decades in prison. But I sacrificed my career, pension and you know, my wife turned upside down, inside out professionally and personally.

Hani: After Snowden’s revelations, I believe many changes are going on in America. Do you think the changes are enough? If they are not enough, what should be done, do you think?

Drake: There are changes. It is not enough. Even though it’s small, it’s a start. At least we are having the conversation, the debate and discussion. How much will be a part of the 2016 election cycle, when we recalled the Silly Season of America? I don’t know. More should be done, by the intelligence community, in particular the FBI and NSA within the United States, never mind the other stuff. It is a piece of dynamics. That‘s not still seen in the full light today. And it’s still ongoing. Remember the USA Freedom Act only dealt with the collections of telephone data with respect to Verizon. It only dealt with the data with a very, very narrow subset of the mass surveillance program. They’re still doing the collection as if it never stopped while in the transition. surveiling people in the unconstitutional manner are still ongoing and a couple of cases which the district court level actually found the meta data collection programs are unconstitutional. So, the case right now are being judged in the court. It is ongoing, it is involved for the meta data collection programs. So, there have been changes. And the freedom of press brings the light to true sources by myself through whistleblower in the United States and overseas. That’s not restricted to just the United States. It certainly is the revelation continuously comes out. Iin terms of the USA Freedom Act, it means the government doesn’t directly control telco’s metadata collection or telephone data but they prioritized it. It is just a shell game. The government would be the shell but telco has the shell. That‘s better than the government has simply having all to themselves.

Hani: The reform of mass surveillance in the US is mostly focused on US citizens. But we foreigners also are targets of mass surveilance. So what can we do about it? What do you think should be done? What should we keep in mind?

Drake: Resist the notion that because you’re a foreign citizen to that country, you have no rights. It‘s the aim of moral hazard when it comes to the surveillance. The surveillance has no respect of any person or any rights or any citizens. It doesn’t keep fair. That’s the problem in the surveillance mindset. And citizens of other countries, we are all human beings even though we live in different parts of the world. So, just because I live in a different place, it doesn’t mean that I don’t have any right. So the people care enough about their own sovereignty individually and collectively. Then, the society will push back. They will ensure the people in the office and respect their rights. And we will control and contain the intelligence or services not abusing the power. But the problem is in secret intelligence becomes their own secret society. They don’t care about other rights because it doesn‘t really matter. And it starts turning its own people into the Dystopian scenario. I’d rather see people free and people in change whether in real change or digital change. That’s why I have dedicated the rest of my life not just for the US citizens but for all the citizens and all the people. That’s how we make progress as the human species.

Hani: Mr. Drake. Thank you very much. I am sure that this interview can make Korean people again think about freedom and privacy. Thank you for your time.

By Ko Na-mu and Kwon Oh-sung, staff reporters

Please direct questions or comments to [english@hani.co.kr]